September 26, 2007
RECENT CONVERSATION #5
Background: A friend and I just wrapped up an Instant Message conversation that he said I could post here on my blog. Feel free to comment.
My friend (for the sake of anonymity, I'm going to refer to him as Joseph): Being laid off is never a bad thing!
Me (Mikal): Huh, are you serious?
Joseph: I am. It does nothing but push the person to newer heights.
Me: So says you.
Joseph: I am saying this from many times of going through it.
Me: At your level with your skills, perhaps. However, what you say is not true for everyone.
Joseph: It's good for companies to lay people off and it's good for the person (in the long run). If they are having trouble finding a job then they need to fix something in their life, and the layoff is the thing to push them to do it.
Me: Must be nice to be you.
Joseph: Why, to have been laid off so many times?
Me: No, that is not what I meant. What I mean is thisÖ I am at your level (professionally), so for me, what you say rings true. However, not everyone has our skills, vision, and wherewithal.
Joseph: The first time I was laid off was very hard for me, but in the end I was much better off. I was inexperienced, and it was my first real job.
Me: Again, I hear what you are saying, but I think it's awfully foolish and shortsighted to gross generalize on this one, which is what I sense you are doing.
Joseph: Yes I am, you are right. Because I believe it benefits EVERYONE. You cannot blame your life's problems on others.
Me: No one is blaming anyone here! Tell that to someone who is laid off in an economy that is different from ours here in Utah, like in Detroit, Michigan... a front line worker who lives check-to-check and cannot afford the time off to look for something else. Some one who does not have transportation of their own and has to take a bus for three hours a day just to get to work. I am just saying that being laid off is not as easy on everyone or as good thing as you are making it out to be.
Joseph: That person is learning to NOT depend on others for their livelihood . Maybe their lesson is to SAVE money, stay mentally keen and prepared for what the future brings... that is just a fraction of the lessons they will learn--then they get laid off. The bottom line is that everything that happens in life is for our good.
Me: Really, so when a family member dies at the hands of an arsonist, that is for our own good?
Joseph: In the grand scheme of things, yes.
Me: Gross generalizations are bad my friend!
Joseph: God only deals things to his children that he knows we can handle and grow from.
Me: Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. Everything you say is based on faith, not fact.
Joseph: Of course it's faith... and my little experience in life.
Me: There's no possible end to the conversation
Joseph: The only end is... faith in God
Me: It is the "little of life's experiences" that I am challenging you on, yet you have "faith" to back you up when your own experiences do not ring true for every possible situation.
Joseph: Sure it does. Every possible situation that you could encounter in this life is part of what God intended for you, and will do nothing but bring you closer to him if you make the correct decisions.
Me: Again, in this conversation, logic does not apply. I cold say "ABC" and you would reply with something based on faith, and for that I have no answer other than, "you do not know for sure what you speak of," to which you would likely reply, "My faith tells me so."
Joseph: Correct, not much logic involved in this.
Posted by Mikal at September 26, 2007 11:32 PM
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As a religious person, I find the idea that "Every possible situation that you could encounter in this life is part of what God intended for you" is especially disturbing.
It blends the idea of faith with fate as if God has a predestined path set out for each human. If what "Joseph" says is true, God causes the terrible things we see in the world to test the rest of us. He caused 9/11, the tsunami, hurricane Katrina, and Mikal to be laid off?
If every situation in life is "God's will", is there really any reason to try to make correct decisions? If Mikal takes a job that turns out poorly - according to that reasoning, God intended that to happen. Same as if the job turns out well, God's will. Correct decisions only matter if one is a free agent.
Following that reasoning then, we could say that all the badness that ever was can be laid at the feet of God. It's all part of what God intended for us. And why try to be a good person? Whatever happens to us is planned already, wealth or prison.
Most of the people who put forth this idea use the same bible. It says, "God is love", and that "God does not try us with evil things". How can that same God be blamed for the evil things in the world? Joseph mentioned "this life," as if we're being tested for another one. So for bible readers: If Adam and Eve would have made the "correct decision" and not eaten the forbidden fruit, where would they be now?
One last question, will you wear your seatbelt today when driving? Why? What's the point?
Steve, don't jump to such silly conclusions. I never suggested predestination, or that we don't have our free will! God knew we would encounter hard times on earth, that would try us, and make us better if we handled it correctly.
I'm glad Steve finds this disturbing too. I find this sort of U.S./First-World (Oprah-esque) point of view really offensive. We are puppets, basically, with God as puppet-master. We have no choices because God has laid it all out in advance. Gosh, makes life really sound fun, not to mention making God sound horrendous. Taking a bad job, doing something that causes pain to others, being diagnosed with cancer, the death of our child...these are all God's will then? And we should just pick ourselves up and learn our lessons, ignore (or deal with) the pain, and be patronized? We can never, ever, let that pain overwhelm us?
Bollocks. Sorry. I want no part of that God. I'd rather die an honest atheist in this case than a hypocritical spiritual cripple.
Having said all that, I must add that I'm not only a Christian but a Presbyterian, so I follow the doctrine of predestination with a great deal of care. To me this parses that God KNOWS what is going to happen, but God doesn't CAUSE it to happen. God won't stand in our way if we insist on making stupid-ass mistakes (e.g., punching the boss names, driving drunk, cheating on our spouse).
The only thing I agree with Joseph about is that we should always strive to learn and grow from ALL our experiences (not just the bad ones, btw). But one look at Maslow's hierarchy will tell you that if one is completely consumed with fulfilling basic needs like food/water, air, safety, TODAY...one simply CANNOT think about things higher up like NEXT WEEK, philosophy, the meaning of it all. Faith, for a lot of people who are just trying to stay alive, is mostly short shouts of "God! A little help here, and thanks for the food yesterday, too!"
Joseph's brand of Christianity sounds to me like a lot of Blame the Victim for Being Victimized. I think it's clear he's never been completely without (apparent, non-God) options. I have. There are simply times when putting the whole life situation out there as a Learning Situation is too painful to bear; there are no human solutions to some problems.
In any case, God loves him regardless. The way he's talking, I'm afraid that when he does bottom out, he may lose his grasp of God, which is why it's so important to remember that WE are never out of God's grasp even when God is out of OUR grasp. Even if we handle life badly. Even when we make bad choices. Even if everyone hates us, and even when we deserve to be hated.
Humility, in the end, is all we can possibly take with us. We know nothing, really, and we go to face God completely n@ked (love that spam filter!): spiritually, emotionally, physically.
On the other hand, it's good to see an admission that there's nothing logical in Joseph's thought process...... ;-)
So I think I have to back Mikal up a bit in that conversation, specifically, good-in-the-long-haul-according-to-faith doesn't really put bread on the table for the detroit factory worker nor does it really say that this is the kind of faith that he considers himself to have. According to his faith, Joseph believes this man is ultimately going to benefit from this turn of events. On the other hand, this man might not have this same faith and rather than go home to a family he can't support, he commits suicide. So what I would say is that it does not matter what the potential of the layoff might be for Joseph, the factory worker gets no personal benefit unless he has the same faith as Joseph.
Note: I replaced instance of the sweet fruit that grows on vines and is often used to make wine with ìolivesî due to a naughty word being located within the other fruit. So, when you see ìolivesî, which are not so sweet, imagine the other sweet fruit instead. And now, on with the show...
Excellent points Steve.
Well, having only been fired, I cannot speak to the goodness of being laid off. However, I do agree that everything that happens in life is God's will, and here's why:
God is all powerful (i.e. He can do whatever he wants whenever he wants). We must agree on that for the rest of my argument to make sense.
Being that He is all powerful, stopping any "bad" thing and making it "good" is as simple as a snap of the fingers. Since God can make things the way he wants, thanks to his all powerful powers, anything that happens in the world must be His will then.
By that argument, 9/11 was God's will (just like the bad guys say it is) because He allowed it when he could have stopped it.
HOWEVER...
Now, God gave us free will, and that is to blame for a whole big chunk of the "bad" stuff that happens in the world. It is His will that we have free agency, and so interfering with that goes against his will.
So... 9/11 may not have been His will? Maybe. It was in that His will is for the planners and actors of 9/11 carry out their free will and make the decision on their own to commit the acts that they did. Most religious people agree that the conspirators will someday have to answer for what they did. If God prevented them from carrying out their plan, then they would not have to answer for what they didn't do, even though they had every intent.
So God has a policy of non-interference, right?
WELL...
Going back to the Bible, there are plenty of examples where a person was influenced one way or another. Go down this path, and you walk into a band of murderous marauders. Go down this path, and you stumble into a vineyard of the sweetest tasting olives ever, tended by the friendliest gardener ever, who lets you eat all you want. Those close to God feel his influence, and most choose the olives.
On the other hand, if God has a purpose for you that doesn't involves sweet olives, then he might not influence you to the olives because getting the tar beat out of you by marauders will toughen you up and allow you to survive some future event... or possibly partaking of the olives will cause you to lose your faith, spend the rest of your life choosing "bad" paths that only involve sweet olives (or the appearance thereof) whereas getting the tar beat out of you by marauders forces you to increase your faith in order to survive it, thereby eventually winning your salvation in the end.
In general, I agree with Steve that not all things that happen in life are for our good. If I decide to get up and kill my coworker in the cubicle next to me, he dies and is unable to continue his mortal life, and therefore unable to partake in any future goodness.
On the other hand, maybe getting killed and moving on to the next life is good for him? Me killing him and becoming some bad man's girlfriend in prison is the best thing for me?
Impossible for us to say, know, or understand. That's the thing about being wimpy mortal humans and not the all-knowing, infinitely wise God... we really don't have the slightest clue about anything other than what we know. We don't even know what is bad or good by God's standard, only our own, and history shows that what we consider good or bad changes on a near-daily basis.
Here's something interesting. I just gave a Sunday School lesson on something similar. Based on Paul's teachings to the Corinthians, one of the many reasons God allows "bad" things to happen to us is so that we will have that experience and be able to console others in similar situations, thereby blessing others and ourselves.
And, as Mikal says, the conversation has no end, so I'll simply cut myself off now.
I feel utterly out-diatribed.
I believe you were Greg lol! (I hate that acronym by the way) But I hope nobody took my babblings as a diatribe... just the rantings of a madman :) (I hate emoticons too)
I love my wife!!! Who wants to argue about that??!! Seriously, who thinks they can prove to me that I donít love my wife and who thinks they can prove to me I can. Oh yeah, YOU CANT, because there is no known logical elements in explaining LOVE! The same holds true with ìFaithî. Both elements canít be sensed by the six senses, nor is there any known logic that explains them. So Iím really confused to why someone would think that it makes sense to argue a topic using them? If you believe something great, live it and influence others through example, but seriously who thinks they are going to change a view by saying ìI am right because Godís got my backî or ìIím right, because there is no Godî. In a subject where we are discussing the influence a lay off has for an individual I really donít know if you can say it is ìgoodî or ìbadî, it is what it is. A person lost a jobÖ they will now undergo a variety of struggles or variety of benefits. Life is difficult when you stop enjoying it. We decide what a struggle is and what is enjoyable. If we think itís hardÖthenÖit isÖ.if we think it is easyÖthen it is. The impact of a layoff is a persons self perception not a whole. ìTwo men look out from prison bars, one sees mud the other starsî. Regardless of what you believe there is no argument that everyone can perceive one situation a million different ways even if it is the most catastrophic event of the century. Lay offs could be the greatest thing in the world and influence hundreds of people to better themselves, on the flip side a person could fall into a massive depression, purchase a katana and run around the parking lot ending the lives of ex-coworkers. Either way we canít decide if a lay off is good for someone or bad, it is for the individual to decide what they want to do with what they are given.
Well said Eljuan and Stuart.
My faith in God is like having someone whoís ìgot my backî. The God I believe in is always there for me, the trick is to remember to live (be) the word of God. I also believe that we are spiritual beings having a human experience, not the other way around. And that God gives us free will to make our own choices. This year I was laid off from my job and it made me very angry at first, but after I had time to digest it, I realized it was better for me in the long run. Since then, Iíve been struggling to find a job, but ultimately, I get to choose whether or not I find myself a job. That doesnít mean that God has left me, even if it feels like it sometimes; itís as if God is saying to me, ìAnything you want is yours, just take it.î And if I choose not to listen, then I am also choosing to continue to remain in the place I am in right now. Life is what you make it.
Yes, you have to concern yourself with supporting your family and buying the essentials and having a place to live, but any of it can be accomplished, and nothing is going to fall in your lap, you have to do some work to get the desired results. Those who have no faith or do not believe in God may have a tougher time understanding what that faith means. And it means something different to everyone. The thing is, even those who have no faith or belief, are still loved and being looked out for by God ñ whether it comes in the form of a helpful friend, landing the right job at the right time, or finding a 20 dollar bill when youíre broke and need to eat. The good thing is that you get to decide how you respond to the message. You always have a choice.
We are all where we are meant to be, and everything weíve experienced since the day we were born has brought us to this point. Have faith or donít, either way, Godís got your back.
I like Joseph's point in the following:
That person is learning to NOT depend on others for their livelihood . Maybe their lesson is to SAVE money, stay mentally keen and prepared for what the future brings...
I think that everything that happens in our life CAN be for our benefit. It just depends on how we react to it. I know a few people that have become bitter and hateful due to difficult experiences in their life. Others I have known to come out of difficult situations like cancer with a new spin on life and are much happier. I won't say that cancer made them happy. It is the way that they changed in order to deal with the event that made them happier.
Getting laid off could be the same way. One could say, "Man this lay off really screwed me up. I am never going to be vunerable like that again." And they change their spending habits to put more money away. Or they deside to open their own business so someone else can never decide to lay them off again. Anyway, my point is that life is what we make of it, not what life makes us be.
A wise man once told me something like, "In this life there is only what happens to you and how you choose to react to it."
I think if your faith helps you react to dire circumstances in a positive way then that's great. However, I agree that there is a danger in the doctrine of predestination. Saying that "God only deals things to his children that he knows we can handle and grow from." gives the impression that if it happens to us it's Gods will and we have no control over our choices--so what's the point in trying to make good ones.
What I believe is something more along the lines of God will pay close attention to how I react to difficult situations and as my loving Father in Heaven he will hope that I prove to have the character to react in a way such that I can handle the situation and grow from it and if I do, he will be pleased with me as any Father would be pleased to see their child progress, grow, and press forward despite the obstacles of life in their way.
Hmmm... that came out being a little longer and more convoluted than I intended. Oh well, I guess if anyone made this far that means that they've gotten through Stu's post and convolution isn't a problem for them. :)
HANG ON... I've got more to say!!! I'm terrible, aren't I?
When I first became a father, I would watch my daughter as she progressed toward something that would cause her some pain or discomfort (temporarily of course). Now I could have easily removed her from those situations and saved her the discomfort.
One day, as I let my daughter get herself into trouble, I said out loud to her just before she did something, even though I knew she couldn't understand, "Sorry, but this is for your own good," that was to say, I was letting her get into trouble so she would feel the pain and learn from it.
The second I said it, I wondered to myself if that's what my Heavenly Father says to us sometimes. Hmmm...
Then one day my son was born. Even though I let my daughter crawl off the end of the bed and fall onto the hard floor (took her falling twice was all before she figured out not to go charging off a cliff's end), my son charged off the bed in such a way that I was worried he'd break his neck if I let him fall. So for him, I didn't allow it. Hmmm... I thought to myself.
Hi,
Recently I was laid off. I have to say that it has been the best thing in my life. I had to make a lot of changes in order for it to be that way. I got rid of most of my belongs, got rid of my apartment and moved half way across the country. During this time I have visited friends in Alaska for the whole summer and driven all of the country. This has been a chance for me to get to know myself in a way that I would have never had a opportunity to do so. I don't have the kind of education that joseph and mikal obviously have, so when I get back into the job market things might be tough for a while. I don't believe in god and didn't really do any soul searching before I took my layoff (for me it was an option and I knew it was coming). I didn't and still don't think this was part of anyone's plan but my own. I think we are all responsible for our fate in life and how it turns out.
Someone posted that god loves us even if we don't believe in him. Ummmm what? Have you ever heard of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? That is who I believe in and he loves you even if you don't believe in him. Do yourself a favor and do a google search for Flying Spaghetti Monster and I hope you will become part of the flock matey!
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